Dykes AND Facs WANT To KNow A Written Interview with Lesbian Political Prisoners: Linda Evans, Laura Whitehorn, & Susan Rosenberg Queers United in Support of Political Prisoners I'm an activist, why haven't | heard of you before? LAURA: I think it’s because there's been a long time during which the “joft” and progressive movements haven't really tried to know who's in prison inching but not imited to political prisoners and POW ‘or instance, how many AIDS activists know about the many PWA’s in prison, and the horrible conditions they live in? Aside from Mike Riegle at GCN (Gay Community News), how many writers and media folks in ‘our movements try to reach into the prisons to support lesbian and gay prisoners, whose ives are often made pretty rough by the pigs. In general, this country tries to shut prisoners away arid make people outside fonget about us. In the case of political prisoners, multiply that times X for the simple fact that our existence is a. danger to the smooth, quiet running of the system: our existence shows that this great demokkkracy is a lie. pevemment doesnit want you to know who we are ~ that's why they try so ard to label us “terrorists” and “criminals”. LINDA: Political prisoners have been purposely “disappeared” by the uss. government, whose official position is that “there are no political prisoners inside the u.s."This is the way that the government denies both that the motivations for our actions were political and that the movements we come from are legitimate, popular movements for social change.’The prison system isolates all prisoners from their communities, but especially harsh isolation is instituted against political prisoners: restricted visiting lists, frequent transfers to prisons far away from our home communities, mail censorship, “maximum security conditions”, long periods of time in solitary confinement. Bur our own political movement too, has ignored the existence of political prisoners. 1 think this has largely been a product of racism -- most USS. litical prisoners/POW'S are Black and Puerto Rican comrades who Fave been locked up for over a decade, Unfortunately there has never been wespread support among progresie white people fr the Black Libera tion struggle, for Puerto Rican independence, or for Native American sovereignty struggles and these are the movements that the Blacl/ Puerto Rican/Native American political prisoners/POWs come from. Also, many political activists have actually withheld support for politi- cal prisoners/POWs because of disagreements with tactics that were ‘employed, or with actions of which the political prisoners have been accused of convicted. These disagreements are tactical in nature, and shouldn't be allowed to obscure the fact that we all have been fighting for justice and social change. This withdrawal of support leads to false divisions amongst us, and actually helps the state in its strategy to isolate political prisoners/POWs from our communities and political movements. SUSAN: The activists/radicals of the late 1980's and 1990's have to reclaim the history of resistance that emerged and continued through the 1970's and 80's, As long as the government and mass media get to define who and what is important then the real lessons contained in ours and others experiences will get lost. People haven't heard of us (except as a vague memory of headline if that) because there i avery serious goverm- ment counter insurgency strategy to bury the evlutonaies who have been captured in prison. I have been in prison 6 years and over half of that time was spent in solitary confinement or small- group isolation 1000s of miles away from my community and family: My experience is similar to the 100/150 other political prisoners in the U.S. If the individuals from different movements (ic, the Black, Puerto Rican, Native American and white movements who have seen the need for organized resistance to oppression) are destroyed itis. a way to delegitimize the demands of the movements. Did you do it? Did the government misrepresent what you did? If so, how? LAURA: Yes, I dic it! I did (do) resist racism, sexism, imperialism with every fiber of my queer being, and I believe we need to fight for justice. “The government's “version” of what I/we did is a complete lie, though, in that they call resistance a crime. It's sort of like the way Jesse Helms cals us “sick -— he’ as sick as you can get. On the morality meter he doesnt even make the needle move. Same way the US. government, a genocidal system, calls acts of revolutionary struggle “terrorist violence”, and their system of law, “justice”. LINDA: Yes, T'm proud that I've been part ofthe struggle to build an armed clandestine resistance movement that can fight to support national liberation struggles, and that will fight for revolution in the US. Of course the government misrepresented what we did first of all by calling us “ter- rorists” to make people think we were a danger to the community, as if our purpose was to terrorize or kill people. Quite the contrary: all the armed actions of the last 20 years have been planned to minimize any risk of human life. This, of course, isin stark contrast to the actions of the terrorist government, which is responsible world-wide for supporting death squads and mercenary armies like the contras and Savimbi’s in Angola, which supports the Isracli war of genocide against the Palestinians and the brutal system of apartheid, and which supports daily police bruality in Black and Third World communities here, even such acts as the aerial bombing of MOVE in Philadelphia in 1985, which killed 11 people and created a firestorm that left over 250 people homeless. SUSAN:I have been a revolutionary for much of my life. A revolutionary in the sense that I believe in the need for profound social change that goes tothe rots of the problem. Which Belew i systemic. Consequenty I have along with others tried many methods of struggle to enact a strategy to win liberation and attack the state (government) as representative of the em. First as a peace activist in the late 60's, then as a political activist in the 70s, and then in joining the armed clandestine resistance movement that was developing in the 80. I am guilty of revolutionary anti-imperial- ist resistance. Of course the government has misrepresented me and all of| us, The main form that has taken isto call us terrorists, which is something that couldn be further from the truth, Just like all opposition to the cold war of the 50's was labeled communist, ‘the 80 equivalent is terrorist. Now there are all kinds of terrorists according to the US, ~ all of it bullshit. 1 don't mean to beg the question in the specific. I believe that no revolution- ary captured comrade says what they have or haven't done within their revolutionary work, Audre Lorde says the masters tools (violence) will never dismantle the master’s house (the state). How do you react to is? LAURA: dont think “violence” is just one thing, so I don't think it’s necessarily “the master’s tool”, Ifrevolutionaries were as vicious and careless of humanity and innocent human lives as the U.S. government is, then I think wed be doing wrong. But when oppressed people fight for freedom, using violent means among others | teak we shoud support them. Would you have condemned African slaves in the US. for killing their slave masters, or for using violence in a struggle for freedom? To me, the isue is how do we fight elcetvely ~ and humanely -= for iberatio As we build the struggle, we have to be very self-critical, very self-conscious about how we struggle as well as what we struggle for. But I think we also need to fight to win ~- and I think that means engaging in a fight for power For the past 5+ years Ive witnessed closeup the violence ~ slow, rutal, heartless of genocide against African American women. To refuse to fight to change that (and I don't believe we can fight for power completely “non-violently") would, think, be to accept the violence of the state in the name of rejecting the violence of revolutionary struggle. LINDA: I disagree with posing the question in the way she does (or how the question does).1 dont think the issue is violence, but rather polities, ower. Around the world, imperialism maintains itself -~ keeps itself in power -- by military power and the threat of violence wherever people struggle for change. Liberation movements have the right to use ‘every means available to defeat the system that is oppressing and killing people, This means fighting back in self-defense, and it means an offensive struggle for people's power and self-determination. But reducing it to a tactical question of ‘violent means” doesnt recognize all the aspects of building a revolutionary movement that are crucial to actually mobilizing people, developing popular organizations, empowering oppressed groups ‘within the people’ movement like women and indigenous people, develop- ing a revolutionary program that can really meet people’ needs and that people wil ght 9 make real. \ logan tha emboxis this for me comes, om the Chinese Revolution: “Without mass struggle, there can be no revolution, Without armed struggle, there can be no victory.” SUSAN:I always took the quote from Audre Lorde to mean the opposite ‘of what you say: Funny, no? I always interpreted her saying that to mean the masters tools being lectoraV/slow change. Well == there you go! Why is it important to support political as opposed to pon parca! prisoners? Shouldn't we be concerned about all risoners? LAURA: think we should be concerned about all prisoners, and I don't think it’ ever been us political prisoners who have promoted any irresolv- able contradiction between us and the rest of the prisoners in the U.S. But within that, I think there is a particular need for progressive movements to defend political prisoners, Because its a part of Aghting for the move- ments we Come fiom. Tf'you ae fighting racism and homophobia, and there are people serving lang sentences fa prison for Sghting those ings, T think you advance the goals by supporting the prisoners. also think that ort for politeal prisoners helps expose how Fepressive and unjust the whole system is. That can also be an avenue to supporting all prisoners. Support for political prisoners is a concrete act of resistance to the control the government keeps over all our minds: it fights the isolation and silenc- ing of political prisoners and POWs, It asserts the legitimacy of resistance. ‘And in my experience itis a major way that people outside become aware of the purpose and nature of the prison system as a whole, LINDA: Yes -- it's important for our movement to be concerned about all prisoners, and I think it’s. especially important for the lesbian and gay movement to concern ourselves with combating attacks on lesbian/ga prisoners, and supporting all prisoners with AIDS. Concerning ourselves ‘with all prisoners, and with the repressive/warchousing role of prisons in our society is another way of fighting racism, since the majority of prisoners are from Third World communities. Prisoners get locked away -- out of sight, out of mind -- and the few prisoners’ rights that were won in prison struggles are being undermined and cut back. Human rights are nearly non-existent in prison, and without community support and awareness, the government can continue to escalate its repressive policies, and conditions ‘will just steadily worsen. This is especially true for prisoners with AIDS, since the stigma attached to AIDS in society generally is heightened in prison, Prisoners with AIDS die at an even faster rate than PWAs on the outside because treatment is o sporadic, limited, and conditions are so bad. So I would never say for people to support political prisoners as opposed to nonpolitical prisoners. Our interests inside prison are definitely notin opposition to each other. Al the political prisoners/POWs actively ight fr prisoner rights, and for changes in conditions that wll benef all prisoners. But it’s important to build support specifically for political prisoners because we represent our movements, and it’s a way for us to protect and defend the political movements we come from against govern- ment repression, For the movement on the outside to embrace and support political prisoners/POWs makes it possible for us to continue to participate in and contribute to the movement we come from and it makes it impos- sible for the government to isolate and repress us in their efforts to destroy ‘our political identities. SUSAN: Al prisoner are in desperate need of support and asthe popula tion gets greater (in prison) and the repression get heavier the prisons will become a major confrontation within the society. If the prisons are to become a social front of struggle then there must be a consciousness developed to fight the dehumanization and criminalization that prison intends, Political prisoners are important to support because we are in prison for explicitly social/political/progressive goals. Our lack of freedom does affect how free you are. If we can be violated, so can you. There is no contradiction between political and social prisoners. How does being a lesbian fit in with your work? LAURA: The same way it fits into my life ~ itis a basic, crucial part of my character, my outlook on things, my personality. Because I'm a lesbian, the fight against homophobia and sexism take on particular importance. But really [think my lesbianism helps me care about the oppression of others By the imperialist system, Sol think my lesbianism makes me a better anti- imperialist -- it makes me fight all the harder. Being a lesbian in prison is often very hard, but being “out” gives me a lot of strength. I have to say that I am very proud when I hear or read about the struggles queers, are waging out there. LINDA: Being a lesbian has always been an important part of the reasons why I'm a revolutionary ~ even before I was self-conscious about how important this is to me! I don't separate “being a lesbian” from any other part of my life, or from my politics. Because I experience real oppression as lesbian and as a woman, I am personally committed from the very core ‘of my being -- to winning liberation for women, lesbians, and all oppressed cople. This makes me more willing to take risks and to fight, because | Fave a vision of a society Twant to ive i, and to win for future generations, where these forms of oppression don't exist. think being a lesbian has also helped me recognize the importance of mutual solidarity and support between the struggles of oppressed people, despite the sexism, heterosexism. and racism that often interferes in the process of building, these alliances. I really believe that we have a common enemy ~ the imperialist system ~- and that we have to support each other in all the forms our struggles against that enemy may take. These alliances need to be built in a way that respects the integrity of our various movements. SUSAN: Well! Being a lesbian is part of the very fabric of my being -- so the question is not really how it fs into my work rather how conscious do T make my lesbianism in living in prison or in the life of resistance I lead. Iralternates depending on what the conditions are, Recently I have “come ‘out” because at this point I have chosen to be more consciously lesbian~ identified. I have done this because I believe that as gay people we need more revolutionary visions and strategies if our movement is to become significant in inking the overtuing of sexual oppression with other forms of oppression. The other reason I have felt compelled to be out is that my tightest, most important women in the community we live in are the butches. It is the butches who suffer most for their choices/existence in prison. In recognition of Pete, Cowboy, Juju, Slimic, and all the other sisters it seems only right. Finally -- Laura and Linda have been out since the RCC6 began and it has been a very important political and personal expe- rience for them, and for us all." They have through their struggles created an cavigonment of love and solidarity that enabled me to subsequently come out” as well. How have you struggled with sexism and heterosexism in the groups with which you have worked? LAURA: Mostly by confronting people when I think they are being sexist or heterosexist, and by fighting for women's liberation and lesbian and gay liberation to be included not just as words but as real goals."The saddest times for me have been those times when I was in groups where we diditt deo this I thinks ery important for people to be able to strug for a variety of goals without setting up a hierarchy or exclusive list. I will contintie to join groups whose main program is, for example, anti- racism or support for Palestine or Puerto Rito, Because those things are just as necessary for my liberation as women's and lesbian liberation are. And I wwortt demand that my liberation be made a part of every agenda. Bue won't ever deny my identity, my right to be respected, and the urgency and legitimacy of lesbian, gay and women's liberation, either. SUSAN: I have become much more of a feminist over the last number of years -- and by that I mean ideologically and politicaly I believe we have to examine the position of women, the structures of the society and how male dominance defines women’s position in all things. I dont think in the past fought agains th subjugation of women and gay people wal substituted my own independence as a woman with actively struggling against political and social forms of oppression. For example: in Niaragua now; the women militants of the FSLN are reevaluating their practice of struggling aguinst sexism, and some of them are selferitical that they subordinated the strugele of women tothe needs ofthe so-called greater societal good. What it means now is that abortion and the struggle for reproductive rights under the new non-revolutionary society are being set back generations, and the level of consciousness among women is not (at this point) strong. cnough to effectively challenge this development. I believe that to subordinate either women or gay people and our demands is a big mistake. What is the connection between the primarily white middle class gay rights movement and the struggles of other oppressed Beople? How do we envision 4 gay movement that encompasses other struggles? LAURA: believe that any struggle of ‘primarily white middle class” people has the danger of being irrelevant to real social change unless it allies itself with the strugeles of oppressed people. This country has a great track record for buying off sectors that have privilege. Once that happens, not only do things stay the same they get worse, But even more then, that, I feel that we cannot be full human beings unless we fight forall the oppressed. Otherwise, our struggle is just as individualist and racist as the dominant society. In that case, we'll never win anything worth fightin, for think the queer movement needs to talk to other movements and communities, inorder to work out common strategies and figure out how to support one another. I think we need to talk to groups in the national liberation struggles in order to figure out how to sct our agenda an strategy ~- like what demands can we raise in the fights about AIDS that can help other communities fighting AIDS? Ie’ a struggle, not necessarily an easy process, but it’s crucial. It’s also true that our movement has already adopted lessons from other movements -- often without even realizing or recognizing it: Weve especially incorporated strategic concepts developed (at ahigh cost!) by the Black Liberation struggle from the Civil Rights movement to the Black Power and human rights struggle. It’s no accident that Stonewall’ leadership was Third World gay men and lesbians. So I think it’s important to recognize that whenever we pose the question of alliances and coalitions, we dontt need to “encompass” other people, we need to ally with them, earn from, and_strugele side by side with them. ‘We need to support them. And we need to fight for them as well as for ‘ourselves, because the second we accept divisions or ignore the urgency of fighting racism, we lose LINDA:I dont think that struggles against sexism or homophobia or racism can be delayed, because these are forms of discrimination/oppres sion that actively disempower individuals and groups of people who can bbe mobilized to actively participate in the struggle. Racism, sexism, and heterosexism cannot be tolerated in our movement or in out alliances because we don't want to duplicate the oppression that we're fighting against, Of course the process of building these alliances is difficult and long-term, because building trust and respect requires building relation- ships that are really different from those that exist in society in general. So Tdont think the primarily white middle-class gay rights movement can, or should, “encompass” other struggles. White middle class gay men and ‘women cannot set the agenda for other movernents or for other communi ties, Rather, I think that this movement should actively support struggles against other forms of oppression as a way of making our own movement, stronger, more revolutionary, less selfcentered, and more supportive of the zgoal of liberation and self-determination for all oppressed people. SUSAN: ‘This is a big question and has many aspects to it. I can only offer a small answer, as I believe that prisoners who have no social practice in a movement because of being locked up have a warped or limited understanding of the real dynamics in the free world movements. The gay movement as itis currently constituted has reemerged since I have been in prison so Thave not been par of ts development I don think the gay movement can be relevant other oppressed peoples and their stagpes without an anti-imperialist analysis of the roots of gay oppression an then correspondingly a practice that implements that In other words a movement that is fed by white middle class men -- even those oppressed because of their sexual identification/orientation -- without ceding power (within the movement) to Third World women and men, and dealing with their agendas will ever be anything but reform- oriented, To only srugele for gay rights without struggling for the rights (human and democratic) ofl those in need, and specifically those who are nationally oppressed sets up competing struggle rather than a cohesive radical opposition to the government. What was going on in your life that led you to participate in or support anned Strugale? fe you to particip. LAURAGI began supporting armed stage inte late 60 when I realized the government would keep on killing ‘Third World people if left to its own devices. The murder of Fred Hampton (chairman of the Illinois BPP) by the Chicago pigs and FBI was a turning point, not only because it ‘was an assassination, not only because the state tried to cover it up, but also because it made me ‘understand that the U.S, would never agree to “give” oppressed nations ther human rights Thats why the govemment had to Fred, and Malcolm X, and so many other leaders. Ta hated the injustice of this society for years, but it was in the 6013, when I supported the Vietnamese, Native American struggles, the Black struggle, Puzrto Rico and saw those nations ‘waging struggles for freedom that included armed struggle -- that I started to see that there could be a struggle to win. Once { began supporting Third World nations’ right to use armed struggle to win self-determination, it made sense to me that I should be willing to use many forms of struggle to fight, too. ‘Mostly, think that it’s my vision of what a wonderful thing it would be to live ina just, humane, creative world that motivates me to embrace armed struggle as one part of what it takes to fight for a new society. LINDA: When I first became a political activist, I was a pacifist. I had never experienced real violence in my own life, and naively hoped that the changes I envisioned could come about non-violently. Then, I got beat over the head and teagased by cops guarding the Pentagon at my fst major demonstration, I came “head-to-head” with the fact that this system maintains its power through violence on every level -- from beating up protesters, to genocide against internallycolonized nations, to waging war against nationally-colonized nations, to waging war against the people of Vietnam, I became an activist in a time that was defined by the victories and development of national liberation struggles around the world and inside the US. Iwas especialy inspired by the Vietnamese and by Black people %, ° “OW, upssnc8 The Boston Anarchist Black Cross functions as the defensive arm of local anarchist struggles. We work to forge an organized support network for local activists in need and for folks behind bars. We seek the total abolition of prisons and work on projects in support of this cause. Boston ABC PO Box 230182