The Challenge of Prison Abo AConversation Angela Y. Davis and Dylan Rodriguez (2200) Dylan: Your emergence aa redicalprisen activist was deeply influenced by your ‘experience asa prisoner. Could you tlk abit aboct how imprisomment affected ‘yourpoliical formation, and tke impact that ithad cn your eventual identification 8s prison abolitionists? Angela: The tine I spentinjall wasbothan ottcome of my work on prison issues ‘and a profound influence on ny subsequent tnjectry as a prison activist. When [Twas arested in che summer of 1970 in connection with my involvement inthe ‘campaign to free George Jackson and the Soledad Brothers, I was one of many activists who had been grevicusly active in defense movements. In editing the anthology, Jf They Come in the Morning (1971) while 1 was in jai, Bettina Aptheker and attempted to draw upon the organizing and legal experiences associated with a vast number of contemporary campaigns to free political prisoners. The most important lessons emanating from those campaigns, we thought, demoastrated the need to examine the overall ole ofthe prisoa system, ‘especially its class and racial character. There was a relationship, as George “Jackson had insisted, between te sing numbers of political prisoners aud the {imprisonment of increasing nambers of poor people of color. If prison was the state-sanctioned destination for activists suc as myself, it was also wsed as & surogate zolucion © social problems azcociated with poverty ard raciom. AL though imprisonment was equated with rchatilitation i the dominant discoarse ‘at that ime, it was obvious tous thet is primary purpose was represen. Along, ‘withotheceadical activists of haters, we thus hegantoexplorewhaitmight mean to combine our call for te frezdom: of politcal prisoners with an embryonic call {or the abolition of prisons, OF course we had not yet ought through al f the ‘implications ofsucha postion buttoday itseems that what was viewed atthat time as politcal naiveté the uathecrized and utopian impulses of young people tring. ‘to be revolutionary, foreshadowed what was to become, at theturn ofthe century, [Avot Y. Daviseache ithe itor of Cnslonsness program atte University fCalfori(215 ‘Oakes Colege, Santa Crs, CA 9506), and has ben acsvely volved in pisonelatedcampigns ‘smcette evens tint ede ber ovm iearceraon in 1970 D¥Lat Ronectel is euretly ompLng, his ctor disseration on racal US prison intellectuals nthe Departmen of Etnic Suis athe ‘Unies of Calton, Berkley (mai Cyan @ucboks tee 200) Me lea mene fe Sat Recrui sees SOTA? the important project of critically exantining the political economy of a prison system, whace unrstenined growth urgently need to he reversed Dylan: What interests ne is the manner in which your trial — and the rather ‘widespread social movement that enveloped, along with other politcal trials — enabled « wide varity of activists articulat: a radical eritique of U.S. jurspru- dence and imprisonment. The strategic framing of yours and others’ individual political biographies within abroader set of social and historical forces — state violence, acicm. white supremacy, pat archy. the growth and traxsformation of U.S, capitalism — disrupted the logic of the criminel justice apparatus in a fundamental way. Turning anention away from conventional notions of “crime” isolated, individeal instances of misbehavior necessitated a besic qusstioning, ‘of the conditions that cat “criminality” asa convenient politial rationale forthe ‘warshousing of large narubers of poor, disenfranchised, and displaced black people and other people of celor. Many activists are new refering to imprison- ‘metas # new form of slavery, refocusing anention on the historical function of the (3th Amendment in reconstructing enslavement a5 apunishment reserved for those “duly ccaviced.” Yet, when we lok more closely atthe emergence ofthe prison-iniustrial complex, the language of erslavement falls o the exten that it relies on he cetenory of forced labora iisbasic premise, People frequenily forzet thatthe majority ofimprisoned people are not workers, and thet works itself made available only as a “privilege” forthe moat favored prisoners, The logic of the prison-industral complex is closerto what you, George Jackson, and others were forecasting beck then as mass containment, the effective elimination of lage rummbers of (poor, black} people from te reaim of civilsociety. Yer, the curent social impact ofthe prison-industrial complexmasthavebeen viroully uafathom- able 30 years ago. One could make the argument thatthe growth ofthis massive structure has met or exceeded the most ominous forecasts of people who, at that time, could barely have imagined that atthe tur ofthe century two million people ‘would be encased in a prison regime the: is far mote sophisticated and represtive than it was at he onset of Nixon's presidency, when about 150,000 people were imprisoned nationally in decepit, overcrovided buildings. So in a sense, your response 10 the first question echoes the essential cuth of what was being discissed, in your words, asthe paranoid “political naiveté” of young radical ‘aeriisis nthe early 1970s. [think We mighteven consider weformationof pisoa abotitionism asa logical espense tothisnew human warehousing srategy Inthis ‘ein, could you givea besic summary ofthe fundamental principles underlying the ‘contemporary prizcn abolitionist movement? Angela: First ofall, must sey that I would hesitate to charscterize the contem- pony prison eboltion movement as a homogeneous and ited intemational ‘effert to displace the instituéon of the prison. For cramp, the International ‘Cotference ox Penal Abolition (COPA), which periodically brings scholars and activists togedher trom Europe, South America, Ausvalia, Affica, and North America, reveals the varied nature of this movement. Dorsey Nunn, former prisoner end longtime activa, has a longer history of involvement with ICOPA than do since he attended the conferencein New Zealand three years ago. My first direct contact with ICOPA was this past May, whea I attended the Toronto gathacing, Dylan: Was there anything about [COPA that particularly impressed you? ‘Angela: The ICOPA corferexce in Toronto ievealed some cf the maj strengths ‘and weaknesses of the abotitionist movement. First ofall, despite the rather bomogenous charscter of their circle, they have managed to keep the nation of abolitionism alive precisely atime when developing radical akernatives to the ‘prison-industrial complex is becoming a necessity. That is to say, abolitionism should net now be considered an unrealizable ntopian dream, bn rather the only possible way to halt the further transnational development of prison industries. ‘That ICOPA claims supporters in Europe and Laiin America isan indication of ‘what is possible. Howerer, the racial homogencity of ICOPA. and the related failure to incorporate an analysis of race into the theoretical framework of their ‘Version of aboltionism, is a major weakness. The conference demonstrated tet while faith-based approaches to the abolition of penal systems can be quit> powerful, organizing strategies must go much further, We need to develop and ‘popllarize the kinds of analyses that explain why people of color predominate in ‘prison populations throughout the world and how this structural racism is linked 1 the globalization of capital Dylan: Yes, | found that the political vison of ICUPA was extraordinarily limited, expecially considering is professed commitment to @ more radical abolitionist analysis and program. This undoubtedly had a lot to do. with the ‘underlying racism of the organization itself, which was reflected in the language ‘of some of the conference resolutions: ‘We support al transformative measures Which enable as to live betterin community with those we asa society find most dificulr, and most consistently marginalize or exclude” (emphasis added). A major figure in ICOPA even accused a small group of people of color in attendance of being “racist” when they attempted to constructively criticize the “white homogeneity of the confersnce and the noed for creative strategies to eagage communities of color in such an important political dscus- sion, Several black student-activsts I met at [COPA told me how alienated they felt at the conference, especially when they realized that the ICOPA organizers baad never attempted o contact the Toronto-basedorganizations with which these student-activsts were working: a major black anti-police-brutality coalition, 2 black prisoner support organization, exc. So I certainly share your frustrations with ICOPA. At the same time, I find myself wondering how a new pelitical formation of prison abolitionism can form in sich @ reactionary national and ‘global climate. You have been involved with a variety of prison movemeats for the ast 30 years, so maybe you can help me out. How do you think about this new political challenge within a broader historical perspective? [Angda: There are multiple histones of prison abolition. ‘The Scandinavian scholis/acivist Thomas Mathieson frst published his germinal text, The Politics of Abolition in 1974, vhen ctivstmevements werecellingfor the disestablshment of prisons — in the aftermath of the Attica Rebellion and prison uprisings ‘hroughou: Europe, He was concemed with transforming prion reform move~ ‘ments intomore radial movements to abclish prisons asthe major institutions of punishment. Thre was apitorn of decarceration inthe Netherlands unl the mid- 1980s, which seme to establish the Dutch sysiem asa model prison system, and the lar rise in prison construction andthe expansion of the incarceratea popula tion has served to stimulate abolitionist ideas. Criminologist Willem de Haan published abook in 1990 catitled The Politics ofRedress: Crime, Punishment, and Penal Abolition. One ofthe most intetesting tens, fom the point uf view of US. activist history is Fay Honey Kaopp's volume Instead of Prison: A Handbook for Prison Aboliticists, which was published in 1976, with funding from the American Fries. This haodbook points out the contradictory relatonstip between imprisonment and an “enlightened, free society" Prison abolition, Like the abotition of slavery, isa long-range goal and the hndbcok argues that an abolitionist approach reqpires an analysis of “crime” that links it with social structures, as opposed to individual pathclogy. as well as “andcrime” strategies that focus on he provision of soctal resources. Of course, here ae many versions of prson abolionism — including those that propose to abolish punishmeat altogether and replace it with recorciliatory responses to criminal acts. In my pinion, the most pewerfl relevance of abolitionist theory and practic> todky resides inthe fact that without a rad.cal position vis-a-vis the repily expanding prison system, prison architecture, prison surveillance, and prison system corpeeatization, prison cuture, with al ieracistand iotaliarian implications, will contiaue not only to claimever increasing numbers of people of color, bu alsoto shape socin relations more generally in our society. Prison nee tobe atolistea asthe dominantmode of addressing socialproblems that are beter solved by ther institutions and other means. Te call for ison abolition nrgesus toimagine and atcive for «very different socal landscape, Dylan: {think you make a subtle but inportant point here: prison and peaal abotiion imply an analysis of society thatluminetes the repressive logic, aswell ‘athe fascistic historical uajectory. ofthe prisor'sgrowthasa social end industrial insttstion. Theoretically and politically, this “radical position.” as you call it, introduces a new set of questions that does not necessarily advocate a pragmatic “alternative” ca concrete and immediate “colating” to what cureatly exists. In fact | think this is an entirely epproprate position t assume when dealing with sepolicng an javispcudence system that uhotenty disallow the asking of such Fundsmensal questions as. Why are some lives considered more disposable than ‘others under the weight of police policy and criminal sw? How have we anived at aplace where kilingis valorized and defended vhenitis organized bythe state —T’mthinking bout the street Iynchings of Diallo and Dorismond in New York City, thebombing of the MOVE organizationin Philadelphia in 1985, the ongoing bombing of kagi civilians by the United Sties yet viciously avenged (bythe state) when committed by isolated individuals? Why have we come toassoxiate community safety and personal security with the degree fo which the stale ‘exercises vielence throagh policing and criminal justice? You've wetten else- where thatthe primary challenge for penal abolitionists in the United Statesis to ‘construct a polities! language and thewretival distowse that disaicultes cime from punishment. In a sense, this implies a principled refusal to pander tothe ‘ypicaly pragenatistimpulseto demandabsolute answers and solutions right now ton problemthat has deep roots inthe social formationof the United States since the 1960s. I aink your open-ended conception of prison abolition also allows for ‘amore compreheisive undestancing ofthe priso1-indisirial complexas.a st of ‘nttutional and political relationships that extend well beyond the walls of the ‘prison proper. So in a sense, prison abolitionis itself a broader critique of society. ‘This brings me ‘othe next question. What are the mostctucia distinctions between the political commitments ané agendas of prison reformists and those of prison abolitionists? ‘Angela: The seemingly unbreakable lnk between prison referm and prison development — referred to by Fcucault in his analysis of prison history — has created a sitatioe in which progress in prison reform has tended to render the prison more impermeable to change end bis rculted in bigger, and what are considered “ete,” prisons. The most difficult question foc advecates of prison aboltionis how tc establish abalence between reformsthat ere clearly necessary to safeguard the lives of prisoner: and those strategies designed to promot: the ‘eventual aboitionof prisonsas the dominant mode of punishment. In other words, 3p notthink thatihereis a sit dividing line betweenrefora and abdltion, For ‘exirnp it would be uberly ebsurd for & radical prison activist refuseto support the demand for betes healthcare sside Valley State, California's largest women’s pron, under tho pete that euch reforms would make the prison a more viable institution, Demands fer improved health care, including protection from sexual abuse and challenges 10 the mytiad ways in which prisons vilate prisoners human rights. can be integrated into an cbolitionistcontext that elaborates specific